Curse

Verbose · Jun 11, 2005, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keesa

Can you please explain to us non-adult, non-thinking, obtuse players how having other people bypass content affects your gameplay? The only response to this question I've seen from the camp that makes statements like this is: "Your false accomplishment trivializes my own authentic one, and therefore undermines its value."

The reason you give, ignoring your obvious ridicule, is a valid one. However, it is not the only one.

There is also the fact that bypassing intended content lowers longevity of the game for those who do so (whether they have enough foresight and awareness to grasp the correlation between exhausted content and leaving a game or not).

There is also the fact that bypassing intended content places additional pressure upon the game developer to produce and release content faster than the planned schedule -- which contributes to everything from buggy releases to poorly planned ones.... all of which great increases the cost of maintaining the game over time as well as great reducing the degree to which content can be relied upon as a means of maintaining equalibrum of the game over its planned life cycle.

It is well documented upon forums like this that most players either do not know or do not care that their actions affect more than just other players.

It is equally well documented that, in most cases, players who adopt this attitude are the first to complain about not having fun or demanding changes.... along with being the first to leave a game after having contributed as well as possible to its demise.

Short-sightedness is not an illness of necessity, but of habit. Let us hope it does less ill in this game than it has in others.

primal98 · Jun 11, 2005, 02:49 AM // 02:49

(okay I didnt read all 4 pages, so if this point came out, sorry ^_^") Hmmmm well while I dont care at all whether a lvl 3 gets there or not, we can all agree that in a way it does hurt the game.... in the PVP version :P

Guild A needs competent Monks but has none.
Guild B has worked up its Monks.

Guild A rushes a Monk, provides him the funds to unlock all skills.... chango-presto- the person now can create a Monk in PVP with any skills they need

Rinse Was and Repeat

So well.. it kind of hurts the pvp aspect of the game :/

~prime

theclam · Jun 11, 2005, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Why would anybody care whether or not someone reaches the endgame legitimately? The only thing that I can see that would be a bad thing, would be low lvls who run to Rocknar's Forge, getting lvl20 armor and screwing up low lvl dueling.

PhineasToke · Jun 11, 2005, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keesa

Actually, no, based on my experience. The level threes I know who ascended are all long time players.

The only person I know who Ascended a first-run character early because their mates helped them through it was, well, me. And I assure you I knew all of the above.

So let's toss both extremes out the window and readdress the question.

Edit: This is just a thought, but... did it perhaps occur to you at any point that in order to Ascend, one has to have grouped at least once? I don't mean this sarcastically... I just suspect your generosity and kindness were being abused.

I am playing an average of about 5 hours a day with my Guild. I (we actually) help anywhere from 1-3 new players each day. From simple questions to leading them to the next town, to actually helping with quests. Not once have I felt abused. I have found that those genuinely needing help aren't abusive or demanding. And the more players we help, the better is is for everyone.

I am so tired of players (asking questions) being harassed as noobs, or being told by the player they asked that "I only plays for myself, noob". The player last night stated that (they) wern't getting help from their guild members, and most were high levels too busy to be bothered. It bothers me that guilds will recruit for quanity and "dues" but won't be mature enough to help the members.

Thanks for listening.

Keesa · Jun 11, 2005, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbose

The reason you give, ignoring your obvious ridicule, is a valid one. However, it is not the only one.

There is also the fact that bypassing intended content lowers longevity of the game for those who do so (whether they have enough foresight and awareness to grasp the correlation between exhausted content and leaving a game or not).

There is also the fact that bypassing intended content places additional pressure upon the game developer to produce and release content faster than the planned schedule -- which contributes to everything from buggy releases to poorly planned ones.... all of which great increases the cost of maintaining the game over time as well as great reducing the degree to which content can be relied upon as a means of maintaining equalibrum of the game over its planned life cycle.

It is well documented upon forums like this that most players either do not know or do not care that their actions affect more than just other players.

It is equally well documented that, in most cases, players who adopt this attitude are the first to complain about not having fun or demanding changes.... along with being the first to leave a game after having contributed as well as possible to its demise.

Short-sightedness is not an illness of necessity, but of habit. Let us hope it does less ill in this game than it has in others.

Hey, now... you ridiculed my demographic. All I did was wear the label you assigned me.

I don't think people are as cookie cutter as these forums tend to make them out to be. The people I know who are tired of the game weren't rushed through Ascension; they were alpha, beta, and power players who did all the content and are tired of waiting for there to be enough other people against whom and with whom to PvP regularly. Obviously my experiences are skewed by my preferences in play--just as yours are. But these forums are only a slice of the pie, and making predictions based on your interpretation of other people's characters inferred from their posts is not logical nor are they thus foregone conclusions.

Additionally, I don't think the complaints necessarily come only from or even primarily from the people who have bypassed game content--if you take the time to read their posts, most of the people who have done this already played through the content. Clearly acknowledged unnecessary timesinks weren't part of the developers' plans, or there wouldn't have been a change to the infusion quest--and there certainly isn't a check for level when you speak to the Ritual High Priest, which would have been easily programmed.

I only request that you stop making generalizations that are vague and not driven by empirical data, and that you stop making insulting inferences about the intelligence and objectives of people who have chosen to play the game in a different manner from you.

Keesa · Jun 11, 2005, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhineasToke

I am playing an average of about 5 hours a day with my Guild. I (we actually) help anywhere from 1-3 new players each day. From simple questions to leading them to the next town, to actually helping with quests. Not once have I felt abused. I have found that those genuinely needing help aren't abusive or demanding. And the more players we help, the better is is for everyone.

I am so tired of players (asking questions) being harassed as noobs, or being told by the player they asked that "I only plays for myself, noob". The player last night stated that (they) wern't getting help from their guild members, and most were high levels too busy to be bothered. It bothers me that guilds will recruit for quanity and "dues" but won't be mature enough to help the members.

Thanks for listening.

That is truly a shame, and I didn't mean to impugn the player you helped. I just find it odd that a guild would help someone make it to Augury Rock and just abandon him or her... what was the point in rushing them in the first place?

My concern, however, is that there are people with legitimate desire and ability to Ascend prior to level 20, and that their legitimacy is overshadowed by these horror stories. For me, half the enjoyment of this game is being able to enjoy PvP with my guild on my main character, and the other half is proceeding leisurely through the storyline without feeling the level pressure the way I have in WoW, SWG, and pretty much every other MMO I've played. Since I can't afford a level grind right now, and need to be able to play more casually, this game has my interest for a long time to come.

And I don't think my enjoyment of the game the way I choose to play it has negatively impacted anyone else.

The Pope · Jun 11, 2005, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by primal98

(okay I didnt read all 4 pages, so if this point came out, sorry ^_^") Hmmmm well while I dont care at all whether a lvl 3 gets there or not, we can all agree that in a way it does hurt the game.... in the PVP version :P

Guild A needs competent Monks but has none.
Guild B has worked up its Monks.

Guild A rushes a Monk, provides him the funds to unlock all skills.... chango-presto- the person now can create a Monk in PVP with any skills they need

Rinse Was and Repeat

So well.. it kind of hurts the pvp aspect of the game :/

~prime

Guild B would be happy that they won a fair match rather than just did a mindless ganking.

Verbose · Jun 11, 2005, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keesa

Hey, now... you ridiculed my demographic. All I did was wear the label you assigned me.

Actually, you chose the label. I merely set it out there as a possibility. Perhaps you should not assume quite as much?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keesa

I don't think people are as cookie cutter as these forums tend to make them out to be. The people I know who are tired of the game weren't rushed through Ascension; they were alpha, beta, and power players who did all the content and are tired of waiting for there to be enough other people against whom and with whom to PvP regularly. Obviously my experiences are skewed by my preferences in play--just as yours are. But these forums are only a slice of the pie, and making predictions based on your interpretation of other people's characters inferred from their posts is not logical nor are they thus foregone conclusions.

Additionally, I don't think the complaints necessarily come only from or even primarily from the people who have bypassed game content--if you take the time to read their posts, most of the people who have done this already played through the content. Clearly acknowledged unnecessary timesinks weren't part of the developers' plans, or there wouldn't have been a change to the infusion quest--and there certainly isn't a check for level when you speak to the Ritual High Priest, which would have been easily programmed.

Already exhausted the content. Yes. Precisely. And why, exactly, should a game developer design for the small segment of players who will purposefully exhaust content early? Especially given the known drawbacks of doing so (previously stated)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keesa

I only request that you stop making generalizations that are vague and not driven by empirical data, and that you stop making insulting inferences about the intelligence and objectives of people who have chosen to play the game in a different manner from you.

They are not generalizations, there is quite a lot of data to support the link between "power gaming" and the costs to development, and the only people who are insulted about something are those who believe (or fears) it applies to them.

All of which is quite beside the ultimate point -- there is demonstrable damage to games such as this that comes as a direct result of early exhaustion of or deliberate bypassing of content.

You asked to give examples. I have done so. If you wish to examine the granularity of them, or to understand them in the context of game development, as opposed to a strictly layman or consumer perspective, I would be happy to provide you with any number of links.

However, from your comments thusfar, it is difficult to conclude anything other than this -- you seek not to understand the reasons, only to know them well enough to try and discredit them or justify your disinterest in them.

Hardly grounds for enlightening discussion, is it?

Keesa · Jun 11, 2005, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I would love to see those links. The reason is because nothing you've said is born out by the majority of the players with whom I associate nor has it proven true of any of the games I've played, the majority of which have been on servers with people who fall into both of the categories you seem to abhor. In fact, those servers tend to have players who make their own content once they've exhausted the storyline. So I'm really curious now to see the other side of the fence.

But please understand my frustration. Your initial complaint was that people who bypass content ruin the game. I said those people actually had exhausted game content previously. Then you said that people who exhaust game content "early" ruin the game.

I can only assume that there is a particular treadmill to which you believe people should adhere and which is supported by links to which you have access, but don't wish to share because you consider me antagonistic... just because I don't agree with you and do not find your manner conducive to amicable debate.

But withholding information isn't going to solve anything, whereas providing it certainly could prove those of us who believe our pursuit of gaming in the fashion we love isn't hurting anyone else wrong. You might just open some eyes and change some viewpoints.

ReclinerOfRage · Jun 11, 2005, 05:50 PM // 17:50

People who ascend at level 3 obviously don't care about PvE in the first place. It doesn't affect your game in any way, unless you PVP. If you PVP then shame on you for asking for even more grind.

I've already finished the game twice, and have barely unlocked half of all the skills I want to use in PVP. The first time going through was alright, if a bit bland. Now I'm just hating every second I have to step inside another mission or explorable area.

I'm not going to waste another 200+ hours grouping with some idiot noobs who want to watch the cutscenes, do all the bonus missions, and fight every single ****ing spider that pops out of the floor, just so I can test out a few skills I might want to run for PVP in the future.

If they make it difficult to ascend, it will be my personal mission to make it hell for every single PvE noob I group with. I'm going to run straight for cutscenes so it skips your precious bonus missions, not pick up the millionth blue staff or stack of bones that drop, so you can look at it but not have it. I will make it a point to spoil the plot for every player that won't skip cutscenes. I won't res you if you were too dumb to figure out how the aggro circle works. I will abandon the group mid-mission, or run off for a 15 minute break while holding the relic, ghostly hero, or quest item if you waste my time. All this goes especially for all those level 17's still in Gates of Kryta.

Now, ask yourself if you really want to be playing with people like me?

Luggage · Jun 11, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

http://www.planetquake.com/qdq/

Luggage · Jun 11, 2005, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReclinerOfRage

Now, ask yourself if you really want to be playing with people like me?

Nope - but they don't have to change anything in the game for that to be true.

Zoolooman · Jun 11, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diplo

At the end of the day, though, these people are really only cheating themselves by lessening their own experience and enjoyment of the game.

My level 3 ascended monk/mesmer was extremely enjoyable, and remains so to this day.

Verbose · Jun 11, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReclinerOfRage

People who ascend at level 3 obviously don't care about PvE in the first place. It doesn't affect your game in any way, unless you PVP. If you PVP then shame on you for asking for even more grind.

I've already finished the game twice, and have barely unlocked half of all the skills I want to use in PVP. The first time going through was alright, if a bit bland. Now I'm just hating every second I have to step inside another mission or explorable area.

I'm not going to waste another 200+ hours grouping with some idiot noobs who want to watch the cutscenes, do all the bonus missions, and fight every single ****ing spider that pops out of the floor, just so I can test out a few skills I might want to run for PVP in the future.

If they make it difficult to ascend, it will be my personal mission to make it hell for every single PvE noob I group with. I'm going to run straight for cutscenes so it skips your precious bonus missions, not pick up the millionth blue staff or stack of bones that drop, so you can look at it but not have it. I will make it a point to spoil the plot for every player that won't skip cutscenes. I won't res you if you were too dumb to figure out how the aggro circle works. I will abandon the group mid-mission, or run off for a 15 minute break while holding the relic, ghostly hero, or quest item if you waste my time. All this goes especially for all those level 17's still in Gates of Kryta.

Now, ask yourself if you really want to be playing with people like me?

Actually, it won't be much of a problem. In about four months, you'll burn out and leave.

Dragonkin · Jun 11, 2005, 07:01 PM // 19:01

The only way they'd be able to do something about this is if they made if so you can't enter a mission without having completed the previous mission.

DarrenJasper · Jun 11, 2005, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Pretty hilarious how some people think that those of us who skip the PvE portion of the game will get bored and leave... Those whose focus is PvE are more likely to burn out once they've exhausted the fairly limited campaign. Meanwhile I'll still be doing Tombs, happy as can be.

Verbose · Jun 12, 2005, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keesa

I would love to see those links. The reason is because nothing you've said is born out by the majority of the players with whom I associate nor has it proven true of any of the games I've played, the majority of which have been on servers with people who fall into both of the categories you seem to abhor. In fact, those servers tend to have players who make their own content once they've exhausted the storyline. So I'm really curious now to see the other side of the fence.

But please understand my frustration. Your initial complaint was that people who bypass content ruin the game. I said those people actually had exhausted game content previously. Then you said that people who exhaust game content "early" ruin the game.

I can only assume that there is a particular treadmill to which you believe people should adhere and which is supported by links to which you have access, but don't wish to share because you consider me antagonistic... just because I don't agree with you and do not find your manner conducive to amicable debate.

But withholding information isn't going to solve anything, whereas providing it certainly could prove those of us who believe our pursuit of gaming in the fashion we love isn't hurting anyone else wrong. You might just open some eyes and change some viewpoints.

Very well... here are the locations in which you can easily find confirmation of what I have stated to you in this thread. Mind you, you're going to need to actually READ all of these and have some ability to extrapolate from sets of information.

What do I mean by this? I mean that I am not going to spoon-feed you with links to exactly what I'm telling you is true. Instead, I'm going to give you the locations in which you can find them and, if you're really interested in confirming the truth of what I'm telling you, you will spend the time to find them. Otherwise, you'll just come up with some form of 'thatisn'tproofandsoiwinyouloseneenerneener'.

General Industry News, Trends, etc.
www.gamasutra.com

Industry Specific Outlet
http://www.igda.org/

The Daedalus Project
http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/

Analysis of games and those who play them
http://socialstudygames.com/

Raph Koster's Essays (If you don't know who this is, you may as well give up here...)
http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/comments.html

Let me know how you progress.

Mordread · Jun 12, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Must there be a thread trying to nerf everything? Assuming most of these are people on their second or third character, I see nothing wrong with it. If they have guildies/friends willing to run them through missions so be it. Running a low lvl toon through to Ascension, giving them good items or money so they can lvl quicker is very common in these genres. For example in SWG my main was a rich jedi so when I created a secondary Doctor the toon already had all the best armor, meds, buffs, etc at her disposal. All of this stuff I had earned throughout playing which allowed her to lvl faster and be in harder zones then other toons. Is that not fair?

Kazahana · Jun 12, 2005, 06:43 PM // 18:43

its perfectly fair they are only cheapening thier gaming experience if its thier first time and they are getting ran through but if its thier second or third time they deserve to be able to do it i took my third character to the frozen gate then used henches to run to sanctum cay and hopped the ocean and was ascended just joining pugs by lvl 14 but i got lucky cause i was a monk so i got chosen easier than a lvl 14 of some other class

i did get some complements about my healing someone said "for a lvl 14 you heal better than most of the lvl 20 people i play with" they might have just been being kind but it made my day

Icarium · Jun 12, 2005, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Very interesting thread, i do agree that lvl 3's getting to the forge then owning in the lover level arena's is a bit unethical, and im sure very frustrating to those that play against them. However, ascending quickly, for whatever "reason" it seems to me dosent matter and shouldn't matter to anybody else. If it offends you THAT much . . . then maybe its your pride/ego you need to tone down? or if nothing else CHOOSE to ignore it, perhaps by NOT focusing on it you can let go of it. Now to the statements made by Verbose about how ascention rushing could ruin the game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verbose

There is also the fact that bypassing intended content places additional pressure upon the game developer to produce and release content faster than the planned schedule -- which contributes to everything from buggy releases to poorly planned ones.... all of which great increases the cost of maintaining the game over time as well as great reducing the degree to which content can be relied upon as a means of maintaining equalibrum of the game over its planned life cycle.

I really can understand what you getting at here, but i fail to see how it relates to Guild Wars, i spent alot of time on those links you posted (and really enjoyed them i might add) but the info dosent apply here.

In a "pay for play" system you bet they dont want people rushing through the content as if they did why would they maintain there subscriptions, if they saw everything in a week? Thats why they rely on the "level grind" to keep people interested while they create new content. As my title says Guild Wars has no subscription fee's , therefore the "pressure" to keep the people enertained is greatly relieved. there have been tons of posts relating to why a person would rush through the game, everyone i have seen is perfectly fine/reasonable. I will most certainly rush my last 2 toon through, as the story is good, its not "that" good

Oh and i did notice that everything i saw on those links was specificaly for the "pay for play" type games